Gueneviere and Lancelot

[1madgirl.livejournal.com]

Greetings fellow Arthurian Nerds,
I was wondering what people thoughts about the Lancelot-Gueneviere-Arthur triangle. There's been a number of interpretations of this, from Lancelot having homosexual feelings for Arthur which allowed things to work, to Arthur and Guen having an open relationship/understanding that their relationship was for political purposes, to Arthur just being clueless all along.
How do you think Christianity impacted the translation? And do you think Gueneviere got a fair shake in the whole deal? Every book I've read (in particular the traditional texts like The Death of Arthur by Annonymous) seems to paint Gueneviere as either 1.) weak 2.) a total bitch 3.) a manipulator who likes to play with Lancelot, making him win and lose jousts on her command. Is there any texts that entertains the idea that their might be something loveable about this woman? If so, do they mention what it is, other than beauty?
Thanks for any and all help.

Comments

[summerstormaria.livejournal.com]

Hey there,

I've only read the Mists of Avalon, so I have a different viewpoint than some of the more traditional ones. In MOA, it was hinted at that Arthur and Lancelot were fond of each other and that they used Gwen, just to cozy up with each other. She accused him a few times of loving Lancelot and not her...which I quite liked! In MOA, Gwen is holyier than thou, and rude to others...I don't remember anything loveable about her in MOA.

Different views of guinevere

[psephomant.livejournal.com]

In my arthurian legend class last quarter we sutdied guinevere form several viewpoint. One that was especially different was in Bernard Cornwell's Excalibur which is based more along the lines of the actual war duke Artorius. In this book she seems like a woman with an actual head on her shoulders. Lancelot, on the other hand is VERY different from the traditional views of him. I liked Guinevere in this novel, she was smart, able, and could keep up with the menfolk which is more along the lines of celtic/early british history. If you want a different viewpoint on her, as well as of other popular character ( like Nimue... she scared the hell out of me in this book) try reading Bernard Cornwell.

Re: Different views of guinevere

[1madgirl.livejournal.com]

I've read him before, and liked his interpretation. In some ways it more closely fits Monmouth and soem of the other earlier writers than anything in print today.

if you have the link

[1madgirl.livejournal.com]

I have lots of books which explore similar things, but a link would be nice, if you've got it. Thanks!

[casapazzo.livejournal.com]

This isn't a traditional source, but Persia Woolley wrote an excellent Guinevere trilogy - "Child of the Northern Spring," "Queen of the Summer Stars," and "The Legend in Autumn" - in which Guinevere is a strong British queen, a very likable and capable character, who is genuinely torn between her two men.

And though I have no specific references, from what I can remember reading about the more traditional sources, I thought that she wasn't in the oldest (pre-Christianity-in-Britain or v. early Christianity) of them at all (or only briefly/perfunctorily), and that her larger role, Lancelot and the love triangle were much later additions, played up by the French romanticists - so it's a little hard to say what impact Christianity had on her role in the legends. In most of the mid-to-late medieval accounts, she's little more than an archetype - beauty on a pedastel, icon of courtly love, that sort of thing.

[melloishious.livejournal.com]

Oh God, after reading Mists of Avalon, I'd hated Gueneviere. They make her look like a horriblely cold bitch. But there is a book that portrays her in a good light. It's called Queen of Camelot, but I can't remember the author (sorry!). They actually make her an awesome character. She's quite loveable in the book. Although I am used to hating her ...

I've always thought that Arthur was so understanding of Gueneviere's love for Lancelot that he shared his bed with the two as a sort of gift. But he's too sweet to think bad of Gueneviere. I think Lancelot has a bit of homosexual tendencies, not Arthur. He is a womanizer in most books I've read yet he always talks of his deep love for Arthur. I think Arthurs is pure, Lancelots is a bit mixed.

but

[1madgirl.livejournal.com]

we can't really, at this point, know whether their love was "true" or not--I think that what bothers me is the amount of debate centered around whether or not Gueneviere was in some way worthy of that love. Hmmm...

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I'm rather fond of the theory that Gwenhwyfar came out of the old Celtic legends, and was a Celtic queen (and thus allowed to take lovers as freely as her husband). I can't think of any early supporting texts offhand, but I'm sure there are some books exploring theories of Gwenhwyfar.

As far as modern fiction goes, Persia Woolley's books present a very likeable Gwen, and I believe Elizabeth Wein's do also, although I have not yet read her.

The adultery and so on was largely a transformation of the Christian period. Since the common conception of the "Arthur story" is based on Malory and the like, most people have a more Christianized/moralized/courtly version of the story in mind.

thanks

[1madgirl.livejournal.com]

I'll look around for the author's you've suggested. there's so many books on the subject, I'll be swimming for years.

Re: thanks

[shandril19.livejournal.com]

I strongly reccommend Wooley's books... and Nancy Mc Kenzie's "The Child Queen" and "The High Queen". Both of which are very good strong modern tellings.

[chthonic-gnome.livejournal.com]

Well, here's my take on Guinevere and why I don't hate her.

In earlier tales, the women could be seen as a sort of "tool" that men used to get closer to God. If you don't believe me, take a look at any of the older tales. You will see that maidens pop up out of nowhere, in the woods, along a knight's path towards his adventures, to guide him to the right places and to give him advice. They sometimes give knights lodging, food, medical care, etc.

So, my interpretation: Guinevere and other women in the legends are perhaps a symbol of the Church, thus bringing in the Church's influence on Guinevere's character as a bitch who tests Lancelot to the limit, so that he would give up self-love for something more...sublime. Yeps, the Church truly is a cold-hearted bitch, but the papacy would probably argue that it's for your own good.

I don't think the Church would be too keen on writing stories about adulterous affairs, but Chretien de Troyes, a celibate monk, actually wrote a love scene between Lancelot and Guinevere in Knight of the Cart and even glorifies their love. I guess one can conclude, then, that Guinevere's role as Lancelot's lover goes much deeper than adultery.

So a question I'm gonna throw out as an answer to your question--is there anything loveable about Guinevere--is, Do you think Guinevere helps Lancelot to become a better man in the eyes of God and the Church? Personally, I think so. Guinevere inspires him in battle, makes him give up self-love, yadda-yadda.

[millebasia.livejournal.com]

Like other people before me, I think Christianity totally changed it because once upon a time queens were free to take lovers as they chose and it was the queens who ruled the land. They are the bearers of life, after all, which makes they pretty much a symbol of their land--get my drift? Sorry that was a little vague but I'm not sure how to clear it up. My head's a bit muddled. Anyhoo, the love triangle thing did come in with the French (those amorous Frenchies!) so possibly (if you think there's a historic leg to stand on with the Arthurian stuff) Guinevere and Lancelot probably never had a relationship at all. Ok, I'm reaching out into left field, sorry guys. I'll just finish up at that.