Tristan & Isolde

[unclehyena.livejournal.com]

On Saturday we saw "Tristan & Isolde", and it impressed the hell out of me. I don't much care for the original story; nation changing tragic romances really shouldn't hinge on a love potion. This version, though...

First of all, you have to realize that this is a fantasy movie, and forget any references to history. It is set in a post-Roman, pre-Christian (Huh?) Britain, in which the various tribes, identified as Picts, Jutes, Saxons, Angles, and Celts (Huh?), are kept at each other's throats by the Irish overlords (Huh?). So, yeah, fantasy.

But having said that, this is simply the BEST version of the King-Queen-Champion triangle that I have ever seen. The politics are well done, the characters are well motivated and engaging, and it all WORKS. The characters are SLIGHTLY closer to Mark, Isolde, and Tristan of the legends, but they could really just as easily have been Arthur, Guenevere, and Lancelot.

If your tastes run to early post-Roman costume drama, this is as good as it gets. And there are a number of gorgeous lapstrake boats and ships, too. ::grin::

Uncle Hyena

Comments

[chthonic-gnome.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad I wasn't hallucinating about the whole Arthur-Guinevere-Lancelot congruence. And yeah, no wonder I was so confused about the historical aspects.

[volterraread.livejournal.com]

I remember reading somewhere that T&I came before the Arthur-Gwen-Lancelot triangle in the scheme of storytelling things. That said, the Welsh sure did love their things to come in threes....

[unclehyena.livejournal.com]

Welll... The historical antecedant for Tristan & Isolde definitely predated the name "Lancelot" being grafted on to Arthur's champion. I am inclined to suspect that the King-Queen-Champion triangle may have its roots in a single real world incident, and the various stories are just branches of that account. But it's damnably hard to prove anything...

Uncle Hyena

[gaidig.livejournal.com]

In older stories, Guenevere's lover was Gawain, which makes more sense symbolically. Lancelot doesn't appear in any of the stories we still have until 13th Century with Chretien de Troys.

The story is in many ways an allegory. Power was patriarchal but matrilineal, so the king's heir was not his own son but his sister's son. In many ways, the woman in the tale is just a symbol of sovereignty. Another Celtic example of this same type of triangle is the story of Rhiannon.

Besides the fact that in the stories one is supposed to win love of the maiden by overcoming the dragon or monster, and Tristan is the one who does that, not Mark. This is especially logical if the dragon is simply symbolizes the various more normal trials and tribulations that a person must go through to win another. And Tristan is sent not just to defeat the giant, but also to woo Isolda in Mark's place. Is it any wonder that the people actually doing the wooing might fall in love?

I imagine that a King-Queen-Champion triangle would have happened fairly frequently, not just once. Consider that many kings would have taken very young brides, to whom a champion closer to her age would have been more appealing. Not to mention the alure of valor and the high esteem in which he was held compared to other knights, and the fact that he would have been the one to fight for her in tourneys, etc. Add on the possibility that he might have been the one sent to gain her hand in marriage for the king. Consider that most marriages were made for political reasons and love was not expected. In the era of the troubadors, courtly love was expected and prized, believed to be more real love than marital love. Also consider that at the time, marriages were expected to last an average of five years due to disease, war, and death in child birth. Personally, I would be more surprised if it all came from a single real world incident than if it was a frequent occurrance. I can tell you that much later, in real life, Diane de Poitiers was the misstress of two French kings. Henri IV, I believe it was, took her after his father died -- something Catherine de Medici did not appreciate, especially given the fact that Diane got Chenonceau, one of if not the most beautiful and pleasant to live in castles in France.

[unclehyena.livejournal.com]

And another piece falls into place. I keep forgetting that first, the antecedants of these stories took place against a background of culture clash, and second, that the stories were for the most part TOLD within cultures where the clashes had mostly been resolved. I KNOW these things, but they are easy to lose sight of.

The opposed poles were Cymric/Pagan against Roman/Christian, with given individuals and communities being all over the map depending on time, place, and personality. So in the matrilineal Cymric culture, marital fidelity is at most a minor virtue, and possibly a non-issue, and among the patrilineal Romanized Christians, it was paramount. In a Cymric culture it could quite possibly be EXPECTED that that the champion would bed the queen...

I have no trouble believing that queen sleeping with champions was a commonplace. But the commonplace doesn't generate stories. In the case of both Arthur and Tristan, the critical point is that the infidelity MATTERED in large political terms. This is why, particularly given the whole culture clash spin, I suspect that both stories have a single antecedant. But who knows? The English government still officially believes that Richard III had Edward V killed, and that was at least 500 years after these stories, and about 100 times better documented.

Uncle Hyena

[gaidig.livejournal.com]

But the commonplace doesn't generate stories

I don't know about that. Still, that's a very long discussion, I think.

The general applicability of the story and familiarity of the situation would have had, I think, a large impact on the longevity of the story. If people sympathized with it, and found relevant to their own times, that would help its staying power, I think. Also, stories like these helped societies characterize and deal with these cultural clashes. And the things I mentioned about troubadors and length of marriages isn't just about Cymric (or, more largely, Brythonic -- since these stories are traditionally told in Armorica as well) culture. Troubadors, of course, are contemporaneous with Elinor of Aqutaine and the romantic movement of that period, which brought many of the written versions of Arthurian legend that we are familiar with.

[access-identity.livejournal.com]

wheeee cant wait to watch the film :)

[maudelynn.livejournal.com]

i adored the film
i was a bit put out by the history for the
first 10 minutes but soon let it go and
let myself be immersed in what i am going
to look at as one of hundreds of variations
on my favourite tale...

[anuella.livejournal.com]

Ah, thanks for this! I was wondering if I should see this movie because I haven't heard anything about it, and you've helped make up my mind. It sounds great, so I'll definitely be going soon.

[aria-elwen.livejournal.com]

Can't comment on the Irish overlords bit because that seems a bit wacked on the history scale but considering the Celts most assuredly lived in Britain all over the isle I don't understand why you're going (Huh?). And yes pre-Christian. After the Romans left Britain, Christianity died out and had to be brought back into the country centuries later. I believe somewhere around the eighth century can't remember for certain.

Not going to comment any further because I haven't seen the film, not even certain it's actually come into the cinemas here yet although it really should have. *pauses, frowns* It's a bit annoying since the trailers looks good.

[(Anonymous)]

My "Huh?" following the word "Celts" wasn't a reaction to "Celts", it was a reaction to all of those groups existing simultaneously, autonomously, and relatively peacefully. OF COURSE there were Celts all over Britain at one point or another.

You're right in regard to British Christian history, or at least close; Christianity didn't die out, but it was a minority religion until somtime in the 7th century (thanks for pointing that out). On the other hand, the story doesn't work outside of a culture that practices both monogamy and fidelity, which is to say, a Christian culture. So it was still odd. (The original story has decidedly Christian cultural roots...)

Uncle Hyena